More Cotton Ceiling

[rozk]

Someone commented anonymously on my previous post as follows:
Why shouldn't a lesbian, of which I am one, decide that she only wants to sleep with women - and by women I mean people with female bodies. In my book, that is the definition of a lesbian. I am not being prejudiced by declaring i will never sleep with men or never sleep with Trans people with male bodies, I am simply stating my preference as a lesbian.

I think actually it is quite arrogant for Trans people to tell lesbians what their definition of a lesbian should be.

I don't know who this is. though psrticular coincidences of phrasing make me think that it may be Cath Brennan =@bugbrennan on Twitter- who seems to regard herself as totally my nemesis. But, I don't actually know it is her and I choose to prefer to believe that someone who has tweeted me links to hate sites with my photo on them would have the good taste not to post here. Later Not Brennan apparently, just someone who shares her views and uses some of the same phrasing.

So, to address the point raised...

In the first case, what do you mean by 'female bodies'? Do you mean 'the bodies of people assigned female at birth' or do you mean 'those bodies I regard as female by some criteria I will tell you about but have not'? And when you say 'female', is there, as oddly there sometimes seems to be in people who take the position you are taking here. a subtle distinction between the word 'female' and the word 'woman'? Are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had a penis, however else they presented, or are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had ever had a penis, no matter how much surgery they had had?

Do you insist on a full physical examination of your potential lovers? An up-to-date report from their gynaecologist? Or do you, like some of the people who comment on GenderTrender, believe that you just always know when a trans woman is in the room? That your womb twitches, or the hairs on your neck dance widdershins, or that you can smell them out? That their vaginal juices just taste different? (For people late to this particular conversation, or too sane to go near Gendertrender,I am not making this shit up. Honest. Not even exaggerating much.)

In which case. presumably, you also think it arrogant of trans people to want to have sex with anyone without full disclosure of their past. present and future genital configuration? Or do you think that lesbians. of whom you are one, should have some rights in this matter greater than those allocated to straight women, straight men and gay men? You did say 'trans people', but did you actually mean 'trans women'? Or are you choosing to regard as 'female' the bodies of trans men? Wouldn't that too be rather arrogant? And I notice, when you talk of arrogance, that you regard your own ideas about what constitutes a female body as trumping the ideas of the person who is that body?

Am I being arrogant in asking to have a conversation when your particular brand of lesbianism gives you a full and total answer and anything I might say is redundant?

No one here is telling anyone what they ought to think or to whom they ought to be attracted. I wrote my original post as the start of a conversation. The question is, rather, to ask them to justify that preference. Some lesbians like to talk as if they could never sleep with women who had ever slept with a man; is that a justifiable preference? One of my lovers was told that, if she slept with me, no decent woman would ever want to touch her again' - would that be a justifiable preference? Some straight men say that, if they ever found out that someone they'd slept with was trans, they would kill them. Is that justified? Or at least, do you understand that level of anger, rather than regarding it with abhorrence?

I certainly would not want to sleep with any woman who had strong views about my past. I don't know any lesbian trans woman who would want to. For me, this has not always been an abstract question. I'm out and have always been out, and don't try to pass past a level that ensures basic social safety - I have nonetheless had occasional unequivocal passes made at me by women I had reason to believe shared your views and have regarded myself as obliged to make specific and explicit disclosure, just as I had to, back in the days when I was still sleeping with men. I certainly would not want the consequent awkwardness to happen after sex rather than before it. On occasion, though, I've thought it a shame, because I am weak and human, and my preference not to sleep with transphobic bigots is sometimes something I've had to weigh against sexual attraction.

It must be nice to be encased in certainty as to who everyone you meet is, and have perpetual hard guidelines about which of them are off-limits - or maybe not. How would you feel about a woman who said she would only sleep with women of her own race or religion? Or who had preferences about body weight, class, level of able-bodiedness? Just saying.

Comments

[maellenkleth]

Oooh. Each of us has the intrinsic right to frame our own definitions. That's easy.

Waht's harder is arriving at consensus within any given relationship.

For record, in my world-view: penile=male. Period, full stop. Your world-view may well differ; neither mine nor yours trump each other, and practically speaking they have minimal need for intersection.

Good discussion, this. ^_^

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

Except that the anonymous Leslie has taken it upon herself to not only frame her definitions, but to seek to impose them upon total strangers. By doing that she declares that she considers herself to be superior, and trans people therefore inferior.

I'm not about to take that kind of disrespect meekly.

[(Anonymous)]

How am I anonymous? I have given you my name. What more information do you want?
I responded to a post about the "cotton ceiling" which labels lesbians like myself as discriminatory for not viewing Trans men as woman. Is that not attempting to impose definitions on me?
I don't think anyTrans people here are declaring themselves to be superior by making the arguments they are making, just as I don't think I am declaring myself to be superior by making the arguments I am making.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

Oh dear, you get very upset when the shoe is on the other foot, don't you? Strange, I'm only saying what I think, the same thing you repeatedly claim you are doing. To throw your own words right back at you: I am simply stating what I see as a fact. You are puzzled why we get upset when you do it to us, yet you utterly miss your hypocrisy when you get upset after we return the favour.

What you think you're doing doesn't matter, What matters is what you're doing. We're calling out your BS; you're not expected to like it.

But you have the opportunity to learn from it. Whether you do or not is up to you.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

No I wasn't upset Jessie actually.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

You certainly do a convincing impression then. And I note how you neatly sidestep my points rather than engage them. You are not interested in discussion. You are interested in forcing your opinion onto total strangers and then derailing their answers when they venture into areas you'd rather not go because you know you have no answers for them.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

Sorry Jessie, what have I not answered? I am answering so many posts on here if I have missed something I do apologise. So can you say it again and I will try and answer it?

[maellenkleth]

Hmm, I suppose that I'm not reading her words in quite that way as you are, but instead considering that there's an implicit 'in my experience' or 'for my part'.

I would imagine that this slogan is familiar: "yes means yes and no means no"; it's up to the person who wears the cotton undies to decide who gets past them. ^_^

Hugs,

Elane

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

I quote her multiple posts in this thread:
...a Trans who was born with a male body however much surgery he had... (emphasis mine)
Here she chooses to impose upon us a male identification in direct opposition to our stated identity.
If I was tricked into sex with a Trans man I would be very very unhappy. (emphasis mine)
Here she refiys the old and tired-out "trans people are deceivers" trope, and once again hammers home her point that we are male because she says so.
If someone looked totally like a woman - and in my experience this is rare...
Lookism here, once again concentrating on the superficial in her personal standards as she imposes them upon us.
It doesn't mean I have to accept your self definition.
Here once again she declares that her definition trumps ours. And yet she declares that we have to accept her definitions. The hypocrisy is glaring.
I don't know who you are, I have just read your post today
Here she declares that she doesn't care who we are, but she won't let that little fact stop her from imposing her definitions upon us.
You say I am being rude by refering to MtoT as men or Trans men rather than women or she. I am simply stating what I see as a fact. (emphasis mine. Note that she can't even bring herself to say MTF)
Here again she declares that what she believes to be facts trump our own experiences; she is clearly superior, and entitled to label us, degender us, dehumanise us.

Time and time again she calls us men. Time and time again she ignores what we say in favour of her ideology. There is no implicit 'in my experience' happening here. Instead there is a very explicit 'I am privileged to define you as what I believe you to be despite anything and everything you say to the contrary'.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

I do not think someone can be a man or woman based on self identity. The term man and woman are biological realities. You can identify as a woman if you are a Trans man, but this does not make you a woman.

I never for a minute said that Trans people trick lesbians into having sex with them. I was asked if I had sex with a Trans Man what I would think about that. I responded directly to that question and yes in that scenario I would feel tricked.

I am not saying you have to accept my definition of a woman, female or lesbian. We are debating our different opinions about what constitutes a woman, female or lesbian. It is up to us as individuals whether we accept each others definitions.

I do not believe that because my opinion is different to you that I am superior. But neither do I believe that because a Trans man tells me that he interprets his lived experience as to mean that he is really a woman or a lesbian, that I think he is right.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

Again and again you reject our reality and insist on your own. Again and again you insist that trans women are men. Again and again you throw this insult right into our faces.

Then you wonder why we are upset at your privileged attitude.

It is a well-known biological fact that being trans is a physical condition, not a "self identity". It is indeed a biological reality, no matter how many times you loudly claim that it isn't.

You bloody well did say "Tricked". Let me show you your own words once more: If I was tricked into sex with a
> Trans man I would be very very unhappy. Don't try to dance away from the truth when I call you on your bullshit.

For someone who claims that we don't have to accept your definition you're pretty damn insistent that you must keep sticking it onto us. You claim the right to set our identity. Repeatedly, dogmatically, without even once listening to us. That is a textbook definition of an attitude of superiority. Once again you deny what your actions show you doing. Once again you prove yourself to be a hypocrite.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

Where they do intersect is when Trans men want access to women or lesbian only spaces or berate lesbians for not wanting to sleep with them because they don't see them as a woman.

If I was a straight woman, not involved in women only activities, Trans men would have no impact at all in my life and there would be no intersection. So no the fact that we hold different views of what constitutes a woman or lesbian would not intersect or matter to me.

[maellenkleth]

My simple sense of things is that the organiser(s) of each space really ought to have the basic freedom to define who may or may not partake of that space.

From that freedom, we would experience a variety of assortments of people within any given space. I don't find that prospect particularly worrisome, so long as the relevant expectations are clearly-communicated beforehand.

I might also add that I would never stand still for being berated by anyone, and find that particular behaviour quite unacceptable.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

I agree but all my early comments had to be allowed by Rozk as I was not registered. He allowed all of my comments. If he wants me to stop posting here, of course I will stop posting here. However, previously he actually posted that he believes in freedom of speech and was happy to allow my comments.

So unless he has changed his mind in which case of course I will stop posting, I will continue to take him at his word that he is happy for me to post here.

[heavenscalyx.livejournal.com]

You could at least be polite in Roz's space and use her preferred pronouns. To refuse to do so is beyond rude into abusive, obnoxious, and purposefully trollish behavior.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

7 times in the space of two sentences you degender Roz. Did you not read maellenkleth's words? I might also add that I would never stand still for being berated by anyone, and find that particular behaviour quite unacceptable.

Here again you show us that you consider yourself to be above polite behaviour when dealing with trans people. Here again you declare your superiority. Here again your actions belie your words.

[heavenscalyx.livejournal.com]

I really think Lesley has gone beyond any kind of polite conversation well and truly into troll territory. She's just spouting the same things all the MichFest "defenders" spout, in pretty much the same words and phrases, and not bothering to read with any depth -- just picking up on "hot button" words and casting them into her own reality.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

Raz says it below: Leslie and those who think like her are not concerned with how other people experience the universe.

All we can do is to rub her hypocrisy in her face and show her that she is less right than she thinks she is. She may learn, though I doubt it. True Believers rarely let such minor inconveniences as facts sway them away from their comfortable delusions. What will happen though, is that anyone else who reads this will see her for the self-deluded hypocrite she truly is.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

If Rozk wants me to stop posting, she only has to say and I will stop posting.

[vschanoes.livejournal.com]

I am late to this particular party. I just want to point out that Roz has been a woman longer than I have been alive, and I am no spring chicken these days. If she has no right to the feminine pronoun, then neither do I.

[arkady.livejournal.com]

Stop referring to MtF people as Trans men - that term refers to FtM transgender individuals, of which I am one. The term you should be using is trans woman.

When trying to persuade people you're not a bigot, it helps to use the correct terms and stop behaving like one. And quit misgendering people; it's damned rude and doesn't do your case any further favours.

And you must really have an overinflated opinion of your own self worth if you honestly believe that transwomen are itching for the chance to sleep with you.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

The whole nux of this debate is that I don't accept Trans men are women and vice versa.

An over inflated opinion of myself? That sounds dangerously close to anti lesbian men who criticise lesbianism by saying as if any man would want to sleep with you anyway.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

Ram that foot deeper; I don't think you got it all the way in.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

I honestly don't know what you mean jessie?

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

I mean that you continue to insist, over all our objections that trans women are men. And now you've attempted to derail the discussion into the subject of anti-lesbian men. So keep chewing on that foot. Eventually you'll reach your knee.