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More Cotton Ceiling
Someone commented anonymously on my previous post as follows:
Why shouldn't a lesbian, of which I am one, decide that she only wants to sleep with women - and by women I mean people with female bodies. In my book, that is the definition of a lesbian. I am not being prejudiced by declaring i will never sleep with men or never sleep with Trans people with male bodies, I am simply stating my preference as a lesbian.
I think actually it is quite arrogant for Trans people to tell lesbians what their definition of a lesbian should be.
I don't know who this is. though psrticular coincidences of phrasing make me think that it may be Cath Brennan =@bugbrennan on Twitter- who seems to regard herself as totally my nemesis. But, I don't actually know it is her and I choose to prefer to believe that someone who has tweeted me links to hate sites with my photo on them would have the good taste not to post here. Later Not Brennan apparently, just someone who shares her views and uses some of the same phrasing.
So, to address the point raised...
In the first case, what do you mean by 'female bodies'? Do you mean 'the bodies of people assigned female at birth' or do you mean 'those bodies I regard as female by some criteria I will tell you about but have not'? And when you say 'female', is there, as oddly there sometimes seems to be in people who take the position you are taking here. a subtle distinction between the word 'female' and the word 'woman'? Are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had a penis, however else they presented, or are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had ever had a penis, no matter how much surgery they had had?
Do you insist on a full physical examination of your potential lovers? An up-to-date report from their gynaecologist? Or do you, like some of the people who comment on GenderTrender, believe that you just always know when a trans woman is in the room? That your womb twitches, or the hairs on your neck dance widdershins, or that you can smell them out? That their vaginal juices just taste different? (For people late to this particular conversation, or too sane to go near Gendertrender,I am not making this shit up. Honest. Not even exaggerating much.)
In which case. presumably, you also think it arrogant of trans people to want to have sex with anyone without full disclosure of their past. present and future genital configuration? Or do you think that lesbians. of whom you are one, should have some rights in this matter greater than those allocated to straight women, straight men and gay men? You did say 'trans people', but did you actually mean 'trans women'? Or are you choosing to regard as 'female' the bodies of trans men? Wouldn't that too be rather arrogant? And I notice, when you talk of arrogance, that you regard your own ideas about what constitutes a female body as trumping the ideas of the person who is that body?
Am I being arrogant in asking to have a conversation when your particular brand of lesbianism gives you a full and total answer and anything I might say is redundant?
No one here is telling anyone what they ought to think or to whom they ought to be attracted. I wrote my original post as the start of a conversation. The question is, rather, to ask them to justify that preference. Some lesbians like to talk as if they could never sleep with women who had ever slept with a man; is that a justifiable preference? One of my lovers was told that, if she slept with me, no decent woman would ever want to touch her again' - would that be a justifiable preference? Some straight men say that, if they ever found out that someone they'd slept with was trans, they would kill them. Is that justified? Or at least, do you understand that level of anger, rather than regarding it with abhorrence?
I certainly would not want to sleep with any woman who had strong views about my past. I don't know any lesbian trans woman who would want to. For me, this has not always been an abstract question. I'm out and have always been out, and don't try to pass past a level that ensures basic social safety - I have nonetheless had occasional unequivocal passes made at me by women I had reason to believe shared your views and have regarded myself as obliged to make specific and explicit disclosure, just as I had to, back in the days when I was still sleeping with men. I certainly would not want the consequent awkwardness to happen after sex rather than before it. On occasion, though, I've thought it a shame, because I am weak and human, and my preference not to sleep with transphobic bigots is sometimes something I've had to weigh against sexual attraction.
It must be nice to be encased in certainty as to who everyone you meet is, and have perpetual hard guidelines about which of them are off-limits - or maybe not. How would you feel about a woman who said she would only sleep with women of her own race or religion? Or who had preferences about body weight, class, level of able-bodiedness? Just saying.
Why shouldn't a lesbian, of which I am one, decide that she only wants to sleep with women - and by women I mean people with female bodies. In my book, that is the definition of a lesbian. I am not being prejudiced by declaring i will never sleep with men or never sleep with Trans people with male bodies, I am simply stating my preference as a lesbian.
I think actually it is quite arrogant for Trans people to tell lesbians what their definition of a lesbian should be.
I don't know who this is. though psrticular coincidences of phrasing make me think that it may be Cath Brennan =@bugbrennan on Twitter- who seems to regard herself as totally my nemesis. But, I don't actually know it is her and I choose to prefer to believe that someone who has tweeted me links to hate sites with my photo on them would have the good taste not to post here. Later Not Brennan apparently, just someone who shares her views and uses some of the same phrasing.
So, to address the point raised...
In the first case, what do you mean by 'female bodies'? Do you mean 'the bodies of people assigned female at birth' or do you mean 'those bodies I regard as female by some criteria I will tell you about but have not'? And when you say 'female', is there, as oddly there sometimes seems to be in people who take the position you are taking here. a subtle distinction between the word 'female' and the word 'woman'? Are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had a penis, however else they presented, or are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had ever had a penis, no matter how much surgery they had had?
Do you insist on a full physical examination of your potential lovers? An up-to-date report from their gynaecologist? Or do you, like some of the people who comment on GenderTrender, believe that you just always know when a trans woman is in the room? That your womb twitches, or the hairs on your neck dance widdershins, or that you can smell them out? That their vaginal juices just taste different? (For people late to this particular conversation, or too sane to go near Gendertrender,I am not making this shit up. Honest. Not even exaggerating much.)
In which case. presumably, you also think it arrogant of trans people to want to have sex with anyone without full disclosure of their past. present and future genital configuration? Or do you think that lesbians. of whom you are one, should have some rights in this matter greater than those allocated to straight women, straight men and gay men? You did say 'trans people', but did you actually mean 'trans women'? Or are you choosing to regard as 'female' the bodies of trans men? Wouldn't that too be rather arrogant? And I notice, when you talk of arrogance, that you regard your own ideas about what constitutes a female body as trumping the ideas of the person who is that body?
Am I being arrogant in asking to have a conversation when your particular brand of lesbianism gives you a full and total answer and anything I might say is redundant?
No one here is telling anyone what they ought to think or to whom they ought to be attracted. I wrote my original post as the start of a conversation. The question is, rather, to ask them to justify that preference. Some lesbians like to talk as if they could never sleep with women who had ever slept with a man; is that a justifiable preference? One of my lovers was told that, if she slept with me, no decent woman would ever want to touch her again' - would that be a justifiable preference? Some straight men say that, if they ever found out that someone they'd slept with was trans, they would kill them. Is that justified? Or at least, do you understand that level of anger, rather than regarding it with abhorrence?
I certainly would not want to sleep with any woman who had strong views about my past. I don't know any lesbian trans woman who would want to. For me, this has not always been an abstract question. I'm out and have always been out, and don't try to pass past a level that ensures basic social safety - I have nonetheless had occasional unequivocal passes made at me by women I had reason to believe shared your views and have regarded myself as obliged to make specific and explicit disclosure, just as I had to, back in the days when I was still sleeping with men. I certainly would not want the consequent awkwardness to happen after sex rather than before it. On occasion, though, I've thought it a shame, because I am weak and human, and my preference not to sleep with transphobic bigots is sometimes something I've had to weigh against sexual attraction.
It must be nice to be encased in certainty as to who everyone you meet is, and have perpetual hard guidelines about which of them are off-limits - or maybe not. How would you feel about a woman who said she would only sleep with women of her own race or religion? Or who had preferences about body weight, class, level of able-bodiedness? Just saying.
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You are completely happy to use the Patriarchy's tool of exclusion. Whether you agree or not, this is exactly what you are doing. Stop trying to pretend that it isn't.
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If you don't have gender then you can't discriminate on it, I would rather have a society that didn't care about gender, that saw it as important as hair colour - which actually bothers lots of people ironicaly
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so what your saying is tou want 'cis' women only space - thats fine with me
As strength to your bow may a give an example of this from trans community. I remember when the london FTM group would include Drag Kings but specifically excluded me despite my being a Drag King because i hadn't been designated female at birth.
I thought it a bit ironic but i could see the point
On the other hand i objected pretty violently when another ex of mine claimed that i couldn't do drag king since it for me was transitioning back not a radical performance, that in effect only if you had been designated female at birth could you be a drag king
I think you can see the difference, in the first case this is about excluding to create a safe space that people can talk and the second is about discrimination and the policing of others.
Mind you being in a safe space doesn't make it safe i was horrendously hurt in a trans only safe space at last years UK BiCon
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I find it interesting though that you specifically mention bicon as a place you were hurt in a trans only space. Before identifying as a lesbian I identified as bisexual and went to bicon. To be honest some of the horrendously sexist attitudes of some of the Trans people there I think have strongly influenced my ideas and feelings around women only space.
I do know not all Trans peopel are like that, but I use women only and lesbian only space to get away from stuff like that.
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and i agree i have heared some prety sexist bullshit from trans people - stufft that makes me cringe
which bicon did you goto?
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The one with the communal sleeping space issue - at that time i didn't really have an issue withTransexuals, but I heard so many complaints from women about how this Transexual had slept in communal space and been horrendously sexist.
If I am honest the more I learned about Transexuals and the more Transexuals I have actually met, the more I have wanted to keep them out of some women only space. And I do know not all Transexuals are like that and it harms and excludes those who aren't. But I really don't want to deal with sexist crap in women only or lesbian only space. I want a safe space psychologically.
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Norwich was when me and arggh i cant remember her name (small, cute, powerful woman) had a massive knockdown drag out argument about trans inclusion at the closing plenary. she later came to another bicon and i was hugely guilty as i thought i had made bicons unsafe for her and sh explained I was a fool and it was because had a lesbian girlfriend and jsut didn't feel like coming. Their was shared sleeping space and i think I was in the women only space but i not sure
the transexual you refer to could have been me i suppose but then the sisters of perpetual indulgence have only been to a couple of bicons I don't remember them at nottingham or norwich only in edinburgh
I know me and my then girlfriend ahd a habit of dancing around discos with our tops off that was more about the fact that gay men kept insisting on taking their tops off
if we meet an you recognise me than we might eb able to pin down when you perviously met me
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I can understand the feminist point of dancing without your top off. But this is a hugely difficult thing for a woman socialised as one to do in a space where it is not the norm. I don't remember seeing anyone doing that, but if I had tbh I would not have thought it was a feminist action. I would have asumed you were trying to claim the priveleges of both males and females.
And the incident with the sisters of perpetual indulgence just seemed as if the transexual involved wanted to claim women only space, but then was happy to claim roles that and behaviour that was for men. I can't imagine any woman being happy in that particular mixed space to be topless and perform that ceremony.
I don't know if I am explaining what I mean?
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could it be you went to the bicon in woolich because I rememer there being crash space at kingston (which i didn't use) and i vaguely remember their might have been the loindon branch of the sisters there. Then the next one after woolich would have been cambridge. Princess diana dies the weekend of the woolich bicon.
sorry for being confused, just trying to help and see if it was me would had offended and thus if i need to apologoise for my acions
there's a list here that would help https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BiCon_(UK)
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And don't worry about it. I couldn't even remember where it was, so it hardly scarred me.
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the stuff to dow ith the nuns might have been if their had been a nun who was female to male pre top surgery but that seems unlikely given the time period. My memory of birmingham is haze I have 2 memories one when the firetrucks appeared and one getting rightfully balled by one of the nottingham organisers for being a total utter jerk after i ranted at her about my fellow birmingham organisers
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I don't know in what way I am being inapproriate
but i really bad at recognising when I am being so
so if you say so I guess i am
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i been going for years and its never made me want to sleep with a guy....
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And I may recognise you, but you are unlikely to recognise me. i was pretty quiet.
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