More Cotton Ceiling

[rozk]

Someone commented anonymously on my previous post as follows:
Why shouldn't a lesbian, of which I am one, decide that she only wants to sleep with women - and by women I mean people with female bodies. In my book, that is the definition of a lesbian. I am not being prejudiced by declaring i will never sleep with men or never sleep with Trans people with male bodies, I am simply stating my preference as a lesbian.

I think actually it is quite arrogant for Trans people to tell lesbians what their definition of a lesbian should be.

I don't know who this is. though psrticular coincidences of phrasing make me think that it may be Cath Brennan =@bugbrennan on Twitter- who seems to regard herself as totally my nemesis. But, I don't actually know it is her and I choose to prefer to believe that someone who has tweeted me links to hate sites with my photo on them would have the good taste not to post here. Later Not Brennan apparently, just someone who shares her views and uses some of the same phrasing.

So, to address the point raised...

In the first case, what do you mean by 'female bodies'? Do you mean 'the bodies of people assigned female at birth' or do you mean 'those bodies I regard as female by some criteria I will tell you about but have not'? And when you say 'female', is there, as oddly there sometimes seems to be in people who take the position you are taking here. a subtle distinction between the word 'female' and the word 'woman'? Are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had a penis, however else they presented, or are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had ever had a penis, no matter how much surgery they had had?

Do you insist on a full physical examination of your potential lovers? An up-to-date report from their gynaecologist? Or do you, like some of the people who comment on GenderTrender, believe that you just always know when a trans woman is in the room? That your womb twitches, or the hairs on your neck dance widdershins, or that you can smell them out? That their vaginal juices just taste different? (For people late to this particular conversation, or too sane to go near Gendertrender,I am not making this shit up. Honest. Not even exaggerating much.)

In which case. presumably, you also think it arrogant of trans people to want to have sex with anyone without full disclosure of their past. present and future genital configuration? Or do you think that lesbians. of whom you are one, should have some rights in this matter greater than those allocated to straight women, straight men and gay men? You did say 'trans people', but did you actually mean 'trans women'? Or are you choosing to regard as 'female' the bodies of trans men? Wouldn't that too be rather arrogant? And I notice, when you talk of arrogance, that you regard your own ideas about what constitutes a female body as trumping the ideas of the person who is that body?

Am I being arrogant in asking to have a conversation when your particular brand of lesbianism gives you a full and total answer and anything I might say is redundant?

No one here is telling anyone what they ought to think or to whom they ought to be attracted. I wrote my original post as the start of a conversation. The question is, rather, to ask them to justify that preference. Some lesbians like to talk as if they could never sleep with women who had ever slept with a man; is that a justifiable preference? One of my lovers was told that, if she slept with me, no decent woman would ever want to touch her again' - would that be a justifiable preference? Some straight men say that, if they ever found out that someone they'd slept with was trans, they would kill them. Is that justified? Or at least, do you understand that level of anger, rather than regarding it with abhorrence?

I certainly would not want to sleep with any woman who had strong views about my past. I don't know any lesbian trans woman who would want to. For me, this has not always been an abstract question. I'm out and have always been out, and don't try to pass past a level that ensures basic social safety - I have nonetheless had occasional unequivocal passes made at me by women I had reason to believe shared your views and have regarded myself as obliged to make specific and explicit disclosure, just as I had to, back in the days when I was still sleeping with men. I certainly would not want the consequent awkwardness to happen after sex rather than before it. On occasion, though, I've thought it a shame, because I am weak and human, and my preference not to sleep with transphobic bigots is sometimes something I've had to weigh against sexual attraction.

It must be nice to be encased in certainty as to who everyone you meet is, and have perpetual hard guidelines about which of them are off-limits - or maybe not. How would you feel about a woman who said she would only sleep with women of her own race or religion? Or who had preferences about body weight, class, level of able-bodiedness? Just saying.

Comments

[drjon.livejournal.com]

I didn't even understand the comment you quote, at first. Had to read your post to realise that by "female bodies" they actually didn't mean "a body which has female characteristics", but "a body which is possessed by XX chromosomes, which I cannot see".

My bad.

[rozk.livejournal.com]

Contrary to popular superstition, chromosomal assay does not always provide a clear settlement of the issue, even setting aside the standard intersex variations. One of my friends is a chimera, for example - and it all depends where you take the swab from; another's test results went, approximately, 'well, there's quite a bit of X in there, and some Y, but...:

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

Dear anonymous,

I think actually it is quite arrogant for lesbian feminists to tell Trans people what their definition of a woman should be.

Hypocritical much?

[valeriekeefe.livejournal.com]

Especially when plenty of trans people are lesbian feminists (though I will admit to holding treasonous ideas about the directionality of gender power relations... comes from Rawls), like me.

[(Anonymous)]

Hi I did post a comment to explain that I did not know how to put my name in, but that I am happy to share it. My name is Lesley. I am not any of those individuals you name, simply a lesbian reading on the internet who disagreed with your post. In terms of the points posted above:

1. We all know what a male or female body is. A female body does not have a penis. If you believe a female body has no reality, why do Transgender people say they feel as if they are for example a woman trapped in a man's body. If a woman's body is not recognisable, then neither is a man's. Thus you could not be trapped in a man's body, thus no need for sex change surgery, electrolysis, etc. So no I would never have sex with someone who has a man's body including a penis.

I personally would never want to have sex with a Trans who was born with a male body however much surgery he had. Why? If someone looked totally like a woman - and in my experience this is rare - then I may be attracted to them. But as a lesbian feminist, I have made a decision that I want to spend my energy and time with women - not men and not Trans people. If I was tricked into sex with a Trans man I would be very very unhappy.

2. I would always and have defended and challenged when Trans people are being harassmed. And I support legislation stopping for example Trans people being sacked etc for being trans.

3. I don't understand why your definition of woman, feamle body and a lesbian should trump mine. A Trans person who was born with a male body may self indentify as lesbian, that doesn't mean that I need to recognise them as a lesbian. I don't

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

And I do not understand why your definition of woman, feamle body and a lesbian should trump mine. Who died and made you Queen to decree for everyone what does or does not define a woman? You degender us even right here in this thread. You show your utter lack of respect for our identities.

You fall directly into the trap of the patriarchy: you define people by their bodies. Yet feminism is based on the premise that peoples' bodies do not define them. You impose your deluded definition of trans people upon us, you do not listen to our knowledge, or experience, our voices. You oppress us in the exact manner you decry when men oppress you.

By this you gleefully proclaim yourself a hypocrite. I pity you.

[(Anonymous)]

Hi I did post a comment to explain that I did not know how to put my name in, but that I am happy to share it. My name is Lesley. I am not any of those individuals you name, simply a lesbian reading on the internet who disagreed with your post. In terms of the points posted above:

1. We all know what a male or female body is. A female body does not have a penis. In the original post and comments, several people talked about female bodies which have penises - they do not. If you believe a female body has no reality, why do Transgender people say they feel as if they are, for example, a woman trapped in a man's body. If a woman's body is not recognisable, then neither is a man's. Thus you could not be trapped in a man's body, thus no need for sex change surgery, electrolysis, etc. Transgender people say that, because we all recognise what is a male and what is a female body. So no I would never have sex with someone who has a man's body including a penis.

I personally would never want to have sex with a Trans who was born with a male body however much surgery he had. Why? If someone looked totally like a woman - and in my experience this is rare - then I may be attracted to them. But as a lesbian feminist, I have made a decision that I want to spend my energy and time with women - not men and not Trans people. If I was tricked into sex with a Trans man I would be very very unhappy.

2. I would always and have defended and challenged when Trans people are being harassmed. And I support legislation stopping for example Trans people being sacked etc for being trans (I think I may be in a different country to you, so the legislation will be different).

3. I don't understand why your definition of woman, female body and a lesbian should trump mine. A Trans person who was born with a male body may self identify as lesbian, that doesn't mean that I need to recognise them as a woman or a lesbian. I don't .

4. As a Trans individual you can self identify however you want. It doesn't mean I have to accept your self definition. As a lesbian I will identify however I want. I don't care whether you accept my definition or not.

5. The idea of the cotton ceiling has horrified any lesbian I have talked to about this. Even those who are extremely supportive of transgendered people and theTransgender theory behind it, are horrified by this idea. I think this idea will actually make it less likely that lesbians want to sleep with you.

Lesley

[rozk.livejournal.com]

We all know what a male or female body is. A female body does not have a penis
So that's that sorted then.

If you believe a female body has no reality Why on earth would I believe anything of the kind? I just think your simple cut-and-dried one-size-fits-all definition is not the only one possible. I also note that you define femaleness in terms of absence, not presence; you might want to think about that.

Oh, and don't assume that I use phrases like 'trapped in the wrong body' - I said thirty years ago (and you can check the record on that) that I thought it a clumsy metaphorical inadequate description.

But as clumsy metaphorical inadequate phrasings go, talking about relationships as if they were exchanges of energy, and trans people are some sort of vampire draining lesbians, pretty much beats 'trapped in the wrong body' hollow.

I have not had a penis for thirty years. It's clear that you still regard my body as male - you use the words 'he' and 'trans man' to describe trans women rather than trans men. You aren't exactly big on respect are you? The worst of it is, you don't even notice how rude you're being.

Are you actually saying that, just by asking to have a conversation about this, we are making relations with lesbian feminists of your stripe worse? I went through the seventies and the eighties - you don't know the meaning of worse.

And when you say you oppose harrassment of trans people, that presumably doesn't mean the sort of harrassment which excludes trans women from lesbian space? Or the sort of harrassment which means that our lovers get abused and told at parties that they should not be dating us?

[(Anonymous)]

Hi Lesley again. I wondered if you are going to publish my comment? If yes great, I am happy to stay and discuss this with everyone. If not, then I will leave as there is no point in my being here.

[rozk.livejournal.com]

Why would I not publish your comment? I believe in free debate and conversation; I even believe in treating people with courtesy and respect.

[(Anonymous)]

Thanks for publishing it. I have never been on your blog before and so when there was a delay in publishing my comment I had no idea if this simply meant you were busy or were not going to publish it . I am glad we both agree on freedom of speech.
Lesley

[rozk.livejournal.com]

I didn't unscreen your comments because I had not realized they were screened. I was busy cooking supper for my girlfriend of two decades rather than hanging on your every word.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

Why were you not hanging on my every word then???
(Joke)

[rozk.livejournal.com]

I really do want to stress that I don't think the cotton ceiling is just an issue about the relationship between lesbian trans women and the broader lesbian community. As my original post made perfectly clear, it's an issue about just how a theoretical respect for all trans people's choices manifests itself among cis people when it comes to sex and love.

[heavenscalyx.livejournal.com]

I agree, though I think the cotton ceiling is more visible between transwomen and the lesbian community as a whole, because much of the lesbian community claims to be rejecting Patriarchy guidelines on what an ideal woman's body is (thin, white, blonde, straight, etc), while falling into line in other ways (fat-shaming, transphobia, biphobia).

[(Anonymous)]

Hi in response to your post.

1. Of course a female body is not just an absence of a penis, as you know that was shorthand. We all recognise what a female body looks like - including Trans MtoT who have surgery, etc to try and make their male body look like a female one.

2. I don't know who you are, I have just read your post today so have no idea how you personally have described your transgenerism. However all the "explanations" I have read or heard of transgenderism from Trans people are based around being trapped in the wrong body, having a male brain in a female body, or vice versa, or a similar discourse. If this does not fit with your idea of transgenderism, please tell me how you "know" you are a woman.

3. "Vampire draining lesbians" - this made me smile. Do you really not understand the difference between being with a woman and being with a Trans person who has been socialised as a boy and man for at least their childhood and teenage years? There are real difference because of socilaisation in how men and women behave and some of this is extremely subtle particularly in relationships. As a lresbian I have chosen to spend my time with women who also have been socialised as girls and women.

I know anybody who steps out of proscribed gencder roles including Trans people and women, especially growing up, can have a very hard time. So I know it is difficult for many Trans people growing up. But your experience and socialisation is different to that of girls and women.

4. You say I am being rude by refering to MtoT as men or Trans men rather than women or she. I am simply stating what I see as a fact. Just as you tell me that the definition of a lesbian is not as I see it, a woman who is attracted to other women with female bodies only. Is that rude? I actaully think neither of us are rude, we are simply debating.

If you want me to respect your wish to be called she and a woman, then respect my wish to be called a lesbian with a definition where I only sleep with women with female bodies. But you don't do you.

5. Fighting against harassment is totally different to giving people access to certain spaces. I don't think for example men should have access to woman only spaces. I don't call that harassment. Do you? So no I don't want MtoT to have access to lesbian spaces for women born women.

I would never abuse or question anyone who decided to date or live with a Trans man because they were Trans. Who people date is up to them.

Lesley

[lovingboth]

Thank you - I had never realised that the transphobia of some people would mean they could not type MtoF but had to type MtoT instead.

Wow.

[(Anonymous)]

Hi I have just posted in response to your post at 22.09. But wanted to add another quick post about your comment about cis woman.

Please don't refer to me as a cis woman. I am a woman.

[rozk.livejournal.com]

Of course a female body is not just an absence of a penis, as you know that was shorthand. We all recognise what a female body looks like - including Trans MtoT who have surgery, etc to try and make their male body look like a female one.

Interesting that you chose that particular piece of shorthand. And, when people say we all know something to be simple, that is actually very complicated. what they usually mean is that they want to pretend it's simple, when knowing perfectly well that it is not.

I don't know who you are, I have just read your post today so have no idea how you personally have described your transgenerism. However all the "explanations" I have read or heard of transgenderism from Trans people are based around being trapped in the wrong body, having a male brain in a female body, or vice versa, or a similar discourse. If this does not fit with your idea of transgenderism, please tell me how you "know" you are a woman.

I'm not actually here to explain myself to you.If I could put into words my feelings and my experiences down the years, I probably wouldn't be a poet or even a writer. What I will say is something like, I felt an ache in my bones that told me that I wasn't a boy or a man that was less the more I thought of myself as a woman. But that isn't it. How do you know you are a woman? Why would my sense of myself as one, irrespective of what my body used to be like, be any different? Some things are simply the case.

[(Anonymous)]

I know I am a woman because I was born in a female body. The name for an adult with a female body is a woman. A woman is not a "feeling", it is a biological reality. Just as a cat or elephant is a biological reality.

Of course I am not saying your relationship is lesser or invalid. I don't know what your relationship is like. I do know though that you were not born in a female body and have not been socialised as a girl or female teenager and so that does make you different to women who are born and brought up as woman.

Both female bodies and socialisation make a woman. I refer to both, as both are part of it. If it was possible for a boy to be socialised as a female, he would still, when he grew up be a man. And similarly a baby girl when born is clearly female because of her body, even though she is too young for socialisation to have taken place much. But a man who changes his body to resemble a woman's has been socialised and brought up as a boy and man, however much he resisted this socialisation. And this does mean that even with a body that appears female, he will still have behaviours and beliefs that are a direct result of him being socialised as a boy.

"I'm trying to understand how you 'see as a fact' important aspects of the life of someone you have never met, and feel entitled to tell them that they are wrong about those aspects, and not be insulting."
This all started because I responded to a post of yours saying that lesbians are being discriminatory not to consider trans men as lesbians and consider them as potential sexual partners. We are both stating what we consider as facts of someone else's life. This is debate. If you don't want to debate, then don't post stuff where you are inviting debate.

I said that I don't think Trans men should be able to access space for lesbians who are women. I have never said that Trans men should be barred from all lesbian venues. TBH most lesbian space these days are open to Trans men, so this is a bit of a red herring, I think it is resaonable to keep some space open just to women or lesbians.

"And how do you feel about raped trans women in rape crisis centres, battered trans women in women's refuges, dying trans women in women's wards "

My concern about this is that often the definition of Trans includes pre and post operatives as well as those who have no intention of changing their genitals. If I am in a hospital ward dying, I do not want to see naked men with penises. And if, as I have, you have watched anybody dying in a ward, you will know that there is a high chance of seeing other patients in semi dress for all sorts of reasons e.g. dementia, delusions because of morphine, etc. So no this is not appropriate. Similarly a Trans man with a penis in a battered woman's shelter is not appropriate. This is not to deny the need for support for these individuals, just that these are not appropriate sources for that support.

No I wouldn't try and persuade any friend not to date a Trans man just because he was Trans. I wouldn't consider her a lesbian, but I would be too polite to tell her that.

"Gold star lesbian" - I and many others hate that term. Its not a hierarchy or a competition. Many lesbians have been married in the past or had long term relationships with men, it doesn't make them any less of a lesbian now. But a lesbian is someone who is sexually attracted to women and if she chooses to have sex for pleasure, is having sex with a woman.

I am not a non trans woman, I am simply a woman. And you are right, I don't accept you as a woman.

Lesley

[hamsterine.livejournal.com]

If "female" is merely a "biological reality" then surely the reality is as real when it is chosen and medically developed, as it is for some trans women, than when it is simply a matter of fate and non-intervention, as it apparently is for you. The "biological reality" around human sexual diamorphism, for example, is that some people develop more pronounced secondary sexual characteristics than others and some people, both cis and trans, delivberately enhance or adjust these with some sort of medical, diatary or other intervention.

If someone had lost a lot of weight 20 or 30 years ago and been slim ever since, it would be kind of bizarre to keep referring to them as fat in the present tense or saying they had a duty to disclose their history of being fat to potential lovers. It seems obvious to me that if a person is motivated to,they can change their sex just as they can change many other aspects of their physicality. Furthermore it seems to me that it is you, not they, who need some help keeping up with the "biological reality" when the change has taken place.

[(Anonymous)]

"Cis" is a value-neutral descriptive term. Would you complain about being described as "tall" or "slender"? That you see it as degrading says quite a lot about you and the way you view trans people as having less worth than cis people. You are a cis woman. You will never be other than a cis woman. And that fact has no value judgment attached to it at all. You need to get over yourself."

No Jessie cis is not value neutral. Cis is based on the idea that

1.There are 2 types of women - those born in a female body and those born in a male body who feel like a female.
2. Women born in a male body are described as trans, so to describe those born in a female body the word cis is used.

I don't accept that men born in a male body who feel like women, are women. So there is no need to have two different words to describe two different types of women. There is only the need for the one term - women.

I do not view trans people as having less worth than other people. That would be transphobic and discriminatory. I simply don't believe or accept that whether someone is a man or a woman is not based on a biological reality. Someone born with a boy's body is a boy and then a man. And someone born with a girl's body is a girl then a woman. It just is.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

Wrong.
freethoughtblogs(dot)com/nataliereed/2012/04/12/cis-is-not-slur-grues/

[(Anonymous)]

"the trauma of being forced to be a boy when i was a girl was pretty bad: i started attempting suicide when I was 6 and by 9 i was too depressed to even try. As a small child I also repeatedly tried to remedy the situation through self surgery - which is remarkably difficult - nature put our genitals where they are for a reason."

That sounds extremely difficult and traumatic for you. And of course you should receive help and support. But I still don't think that your trauma means that you are a woman.

"your comments point to a basic question - how do you know you are a woman?
And a futher question why should I accept that your a women just because you say so?"

As I have said in a previous post I know I am a woman because I was born in a female body. You don't need to accept this, but both institutions in society and everyone I meet does accept that I am a woman. Do people and institutions accept you are a woman?

"do you know much about intersexulity?....How would you see a partner who had been labeled as a girl at birth but actually had been porn with a penis that had been "reduced" to fit within the feamle norms?"
If a partner had been born intersex, a choice had been made about which sex to make the baby through surgery and female was chosen and she had been brought up as a girl, I would see her as a woman.

"you mention that you would feel tricked into sex if you had had sex with a trans man, so you would feel tricked if an ex-lover whom you thought was female subsquently changes their sex to become a man? "
No because I would still see them as a woman - a confused woman, but a woman nevertheless.

"you say your a lesbian feminist - why should I aceept to you as being a lesbian feminist? I known plenty of lesbians who used to have sex with men, and even have sex with men, yet still describe themselves as lesbian, should I accept them as lesbians, why should i accept what you say?"
You don't have to is the obvious answer. I personally don't think the fact that a lesbian has previously slept with a man means she is not a lesbian. There is lots of pressure on young lesbians to conform to straight society and it takes a lot for a young lesbian to stand up to that. But I wouldn't view a woman who slept with men to be a lesbian.

"btw the answer is because we run this world on trust, and if you say your a lesbian that's good enough for me."
So if a man who identified as a man said he is a lesbian you would accept that? I think words mean something and they are not just whatever people want them to mean.

Lesley

[x-mass.livejournal.com]

"So if a man who identified as a man said he is a lesbian you would accept that? I think words mean something and they are not just whatever people want them to mean"

ok fair point, i was wrong and you were right

[(Anonymous)]

"small point transexual people what to change their bodies, transgender cover a huge range of communities for example if you were intrested in dragging up as a man, for an evening of fun once in a blue moon, that would make you transgender."

So lesbians should be open to having sex with men who drag up as a woman for the evening thenThat would encompass a LOT of men under the label of transexual. Making the definition of transexual so wide just makes the idea of the "cotton ceiling" even more ridiculous.

[x-mass.livejournal.com]

no absolutely not

were talking about transexual women here not transgender people

the definition of transgender is different from the definition of transexual your conflation of the two is the problem

its like saying that asians belive that women should not be allowed to go to school just because some afagani and pakistani people belive it to be so

[sarah lake (from livejournal.com)]

I'd be interested to know, Lesley, how you would define the characteristics of femaleness which would mean you felt you had been 'tricked into sex' by somebody who was NOT a lesbian. Before answering could I recommend googling this piece 'Dr. Charmian Quigley Writes to Greer' and reading it. I'd post a link but live journal seems to reject links in comments.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

Hi Sarah
My comment about being tricked was made in response to a question where I was asked how I would feel if I slept with a Trans man thinking he was a woman. And yes I would feel tricked in this scenario. A woman is someone who has been born in a female body. Because of socialisation there are differences between women and men and that includes differences between women and Trans men who grew up unhappy with the gender role they were being asked to play.

I read the article you mention and I know a little about intersex already. If someone was born intersex and had surgery to alter or modify genitals or other parts of their body as a baby so they were clearly a girl and they were brought up as a girl, I would have no problem sleeping with her - assuming I fancied her of course!

And most Trans people are not intersex.

[noirrosaleen.livejournal.com]

Good gods. Just reading this comment thread makes me wanna throw up in my mouth a little. I'm reminded forcibly of people who believe the earth is flat, or possibly that because their religion says so, they must burn people they deem witches to save their souls. People like these are what's going to put scars on the souls of my future clients. What's scariest is how absolutely blind she is to her bigotry. *shudders* I think I need to go read something fluffy to take my mind off this.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

And you think saying that Trans people need to break down the "cotton ceiling" so that lesbians will sleep with them is not sick inducing?

[rozk.livejournal.com]

The point of the cotton ceiling debate - which, to remind everyone, is not just about the rights of lesbian trans women - is to discuss whether there is any validity to a theoretical model of trans equality which leaves untouched the idea that the trans body, whether pre- or post- medical/surgical/hormonal intervention, is intrinsically other and lesser. It is a debate about -for example- whether trans people should be expected to settle for objectification - whether in the shape of 'chasing' or in the blanket dismissal of us from certain sorts of space, whether it be specifically sexual space like certain sorts of bar or club, or space where our presence is seen as a sexual threat, as in rape survival centres, shelters for the victims of violence, or wards full of dying people. A lot of the time the debate centres on the fear of penises, whether by straight men or lesbians - I notice that, above, in a revealing moment of lack of compassion, Leslie says that she would not want trans people on a women's ward in case, in their last agony, someone might see something untoward.

Most trans people transition to a greater or lesser extent depending on the availability and cost of medical intervention, but yes, some trans women have penises, many trans men do not, and gender queer people might have whatever they are comfortable with, but you don't get to know unless it's relevant.

It's clear that certain sorts of people - of whom militant reactionary Christians are one and 'radical feminists' another - don't believe in trans equality. Leslie has made it perfectly clear that she thinks sex and gender and socialization and body configuration at birth are simple issues around which she should not have to accept any complexity whatever. She claims to oppose harrassment, but fails at even minimal politeness. In the end, it comes down to faith, which trumps, for the believer, manners at every turn.

[rozk.livejournal.com]

Leslie and those who think like her are not concerned with how other people experience the universe. She says, revealingly, that women who sleep with trans women stop being lesbians at that point; she objects to the old 'gold star' term, saying that it is not a competition, but she also believes that her sense of things trumps not only trans people's sense of ourselves, but the sexual identification of the people who have sex with us. Again, her faith tells her otherwise.

How does this differ from the attitude to her sexuality of those Evangelical Christians who regard her as lesser, inferior, failing to do God's Will? Both ways of talking and thinking are based in faith and not suceptible to reason. Any arguments cited by believers in support of their views are always mere counters.

Leslie does not believe that there is any evidence available that would convince her that trans women are women and not men. I ask her two questions - what sort of evidence would be enough for you? and, if there were such evidence, are you prepared to spend the rest of your life apologizing?

[rozk.livejournal.com]

The idea that I would have less experience of death and dying is a quite remarkable piece of transphobic othering.

[(Anonymous)]

No Rozk I did not say you have less experience of this, I don't know you, so I have no idea of your experiences. I was simply explaining my point in case you or someone else reading it didn't have experience or understanding of it.

People can sexually identify how they want. But I can also have my own opinion on their identification. None trumps each other, we just have different views. And I don't regard Trans people as lesser at all.

What evidence would convince me Trans men are really woman? Properly researched scientific evidence of clear biological differences that meant in spite of outward appearance Trans men had a womans biology. But I think this is unlikely. If it happens I promise I will come back and apologise.

[paratti.livejournal.com]

Support from a Cis Feminist Lesley who knows that Feminism means being in solidarity with all my sisters, no matter their origins,

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

So you don't value woman's only space then?

[rozk.livejournal.com]

If lesley222 really wants to go on being here and exhibiting a level of fail rarely seen, then I am not going to stand in her way...Gotta admire the persistence.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

Well thank you for admiring my persistence! And I meant it, if you do want me to stop posting, all you have to do is say and I will stop.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

One of the things that does puzzle me is why Transgenders should trigger so much hate, fear and violence amongst some people. I do NOT mean that this is transgender people's fault at all - it is clearly not. But I have seen people become quite hateful and fearful about Transgenderism.

Anyone any idea of why that is? Just interested in your perspectives as I really don't understand this reaction from some people.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

Yes.Leslie, why do we trigger such levels of hate and fear in you? Why are you investing so much energy in denying our realities? Any idea why this is?

Hello Ms Pot, meet kettle.

[rozk.livejournal.com]

I think it amusing that leslie222 thinks that trans women dominate conversations. Maybe she should 1. count her contributions on this thread and 2. see how many of them duplicate what she has already said.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

She's deleted her journal already. Houston, we have flounce sign.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

Okay I do have to go now. I will check in again and respond to any posts that you want me to. I know you see me as transphobic.

But seriously I do not hate or fear you. I actually feel quite fond of those who have been most active on here and if you lived close to me I would invite you all round now. I would even be polite and call you by your chosen pronoun.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

Oh, now I feel appropriately condescended to. You would be polite and use our correct pronouns. Everything is all sweetness and light.

Except that you still maintan the delusion that trans women are really men in spite of all available evidence to the contrary and that you still reserve the right to call us men behind our backs and deny us access to women's spaces because you really believe that we're still men. But everything's okay because you say you don't hate or fear us at the same time eveything you say loudly proclaims how much you do.

I have never before seen such depth of fail concentrated so closely together.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

But you do. You are saying that you should have access to women only space because you are a woman even though I think you are not. So you are trying to force your beliefs on to me as mucha s I am trying to force my view on to you.

[rozk.livejournal.com]

In the end, the issue is that you think your views on this trump not only my views but the views of all the women who, across the last thirty years, have welcomed, have invited, me into women's space. I've never gone anywhere where a majority of the people present would not want me simply because I don't want to hang with bigots - so, when the women's floor at the London Lesbian and Gay centre was being run by Sheila Jeffreys and her mob, I would not go up there in any circumstances. The lesbian discoes in the basement were another matter. Similarly, when Marilyn Hacker wanted me to go wtih her to her own book launch at Onlywomen Press, I respected the publishers' bigotry even though it caused them considerable embarrassment with a very pissed off author. There have always been plenty of spaces that would be described by all who used them as women-only space to which I was welcome. And these days, of course, there are fewer and fewer spaces where I would not be welcome, so really I would not force myself into a space where you made the rules.