More Cotton Ceiling
Apr. 17th, 2012 08:12 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rozkSomeone commented anonymously on my previous post as follows:
Why shouldn't a lesbian, of which I am one, decide that she only wants to sleep with women - and by women I mean people with female bodies. In my book, that is the definition of a lesbian. I am not being prejudiced by declaring i will never sleep with men or never sleep with Trans people with male bodies, I am simply stating my preference as a lesbian.
I think actually it is quite arrogant for Trans people to tell lesbians what their definition of a lesbian should be.
I don't know who this is. though psrticular coincidences of phrasing make me think that it may be Cath Brennan =@bugbrennan on Twitter- who seems to regard herself as totally my nemesis. But, I don't actually know it is her and I choose to prefer to believe that someone who has tweeted me links to hate sites with my photo on them would have the good taste not to post here. Later Not Brennan apparently, just someone who shares her views and uses some of the same phrasing.
So, to address the point raised...
In the first case, what do you mean by 'female bodies'? Do you mean 'the bodies of people assigned female at birth' or do you mean 'those bodies I regard as female by some criteria I will tell you about but have not'? And when you say 'female', is there, as oddly there sometimes seems to be in people who take the position you are taking here. a subtle distinction between the word 'female' and the word 'woman'? Are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had a penis, however else they presented, or are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had ever had a penis, no matter how much surgery they had had?
Do you insist on a full physical examination of your potential lovers? An up-to-date report from their gynaecologist? Or do you, like some of the people who comment on GenderTrender, believe that you just always know when a trans woman is in the room? That your womb twitches, or the hairs on your neck dance widdershins, or that you can smell them out? That their vaginal juices just taste different? (For people late to this particular conversation, or too sane to go near Gendertrender,I am not making this shit up. Honest. Not even exaggerating much.)
In which case. presumably, you also think it arrogant of trans people to want to have sex with anyone without full disclosure of their past. present and future genital configuration? Or do you think that lesbians. of whom you are one, should have some rights in this matter greater than those allocated to straight women, straight men and gay men? You did say 'trans people', but did you actually mean 'trans women'? Or are you choosing to regard as 'female' the bodies of trans men? Wouldn't that too be rather arrogant? And I notice, when you talk of arrogance, that you regard your own ideas about what constitutes a female body as trumping the ideas of the person who is that body?
Am I being arrogant in asking to have a conversation when your particular brand of lesbianism gives you a full and total answer and anything I might say is redundant?
No one here is telling anyone what they ought to think or to whom they ought to be attracted. I wrote my original post as the start of a conversation. The question is, rather, to ask them to justify that preference. Some lesbians like to talk as if they could never sleep with women who had ever slept with a man; is that a justifiable preference? One of my lovers was told that, if she slept with me, no decent woman would ever want to touch her again' - would that be a justifiable preference? Some straight men say that, if they ever found out that someone they'd slept with was trans, they would kill them. Is that justified? Or at least, do you understand that level of anger, rather than regarding it with abhorrence?
I certainly would not want to sleep with any woman who had strong views about my past. I don't know any lesbian trans woman who would want to. For me, this has not always been an abstract question. I'm out and have always been out, and don't try to pass past a level that ensures basic social safety - I have nonetheless had occasional unequivocal passes made at me by women I had reason to believe shared your views and have regarded myself as obliged to make specific and explicit disclosure, just as I had to, back in the days when I was still sleeping with men. I certainly would not want the consequent awkwardness to happen after sex rather than before it. On occasion, though, I've thought it a shame, because I am weak and human, and my preference not to sleep with transphobic bigots is sometimes something I've had to weigh against sexual attraction.
It must be nice to be encased in certainty as to who everyone you meet is, and have perpetual hard guidelines about which of them are off-limits - or maybe not. How would you feel about a woman who said she would only sleep with women of her own race or religion? Or who had preferences about body weight, class, level of able-bodiedness? Just saying.
Why shouldn't a lesbian, of which I am one, decide that she only wants to sleep with women - and by women I mean people with female bodies. In my book, that is the definition of a lesbian. I am not being prejudiced by declaring i will never sleep with men or never sleep with Trans people with male bodies, I am simply stating my preference as a lesbian.
I think actually it is quite arrogant for Trans people to tell lesbians what their definition of a lesbian should be.
I don't know who this is. though psrticular coincidences of phrasing make me think that it may be Cath Brennan =@bugbrennan on Twitter- who seems to regard herself as totally my nemesis. But, I don't actually know it is her and I choose to prefer to believe that someone who has tweeted me links to hate sites with my photo on them would have the good taste not to post here. Later Not Brennan apparently, just someone who shares her views and uses some of the same phrasing.
So, to address the point raised...
In the first case, what do you mean by 'female bodies'? Do you mean 'the bodies of people assigned female at birth' or do you mean 'those bodies I regard as female by some criteria I will tell you about but have not'? And when you say 'female', is there, as oddly there sometimes seems to be in people who take the position you are taking here. a subtle distinction between the word 'female' and the word 'woman'? Are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had a penis, however else they presented, or are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had ever had a penis, no matter how much surgery they had had?
Do you insist on a full physical examination of your potential lovers? An up-to-date report from their gynaecologist? Or do you, like some of the people who comment on GenderTrender, believe that you just always know when a trans woman is in the room? That your womb twitches, or the hairs on your neck dance widdershins, or that you can smell them out? That their vaginal juices just taste different? (For people late to this particular conversation, or too sane to go near Gendertrender,I am not making this shit up. Honest. Not even exaggerating much.)
In which case. presumably, you also think it arrogant of trans people to want to have sex with anyone without full disclosure of their past. present and future genital configuration? Or do you think that lesbians. of whom you are one, should have some rights in this matter greater than those allocated to straight women, straight men and gay men? You did say 'trans people', but did you actually mean 'trans women'? Or are you choosing to regard as 'female' the bodies of trans men? Wouldn't that too be rather arrogant? And I notice, when you talk of arrogance, that you regard your own ideas about what constitutes a female body as trumping the ideas of the person who is that body?
Am I being arrogant in asking to have a conversation when your particular brand of lesbianism gives you a full and total answer and anything I might say is redundant?
No one here is telling anyone what they ought to think or to whom they ought to be attracted. I wrote my original post as the start of a conversation. The question is, rather, to ask them to justify that preference. Some lesbians like to talk as if they could never sleep with women who had ever slept with a man; is that a justifiable preference? One of my lovers was told that, if she slept with me, no decent woman would ever want to touch her again' - would that be a justifiable preference? Some straight men say that, if they ever found out that someone they'd slept with was trans, they would kill them. Is that justified? Or at least, do you understand that level of anger, rather than regarding it with abhorrence?
I certainly would not want to sleep with any woman who had strong views about my past. I don't know any lesbian trans woman who would want to. For me, this has not always been an abstract question. I'm out and have always been out, and don't try to pass past a level that ensures basic social safety - I have nonetheless had occasional unequivocal passes made at me by women I had reason to believe shared your views and have regarded myself as obliged to make specific and explicit disclosure, just as I had to, back in the days when I was still sleeping with men. I certainly would not want the consequent awkwardness to happen after sex rather than before it. On occasion, though, I've thought it a shame, because I am weak and human, and my preference not to sleep with transphobic bigots is sometimes something I've had to weigh against sexual attraction.
It must be nice to be encased in certainty as to who everyone you meet is, and have perpetual hard guidelines about which of them are off-limits - or maybe not. How would you feel about a woman who said she would only sleep with women of her own race or religion? Or who had preferences about body weight, class, level of able-bodiedness? Just saying.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 09:45 am (UTC)My comment about being tricked was made in response to a question where I was asked how I would feel if I slept with a Trans man thinking he was a woman. And yes I would feel tricked in this scenario. A woman is someone who has been born in a female body. Because of socialisation there are differences between women and men and that includes differences between women and Trans men who grew up unhappy with the gender role they were being asked to play.
I read the article you mention and I know a little about intersex already. If someone was born intersex and had surgery to alter or modify genitals or other parts of their body as a baby so they were clearly a girl and they were brought up as a girl, I would have no problem sleeping with her - assuming I fancied her of course!
And most Trans people are not intersex.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 10:45 am (UTC)Speaking personally my preference is for people who smell like men and have male organs although I can't tell which individuals I might really fancy until I actually meet them. I wouldn't wish to deny a different sexual preference to you. Autonomy over our own bodies and what we do with them is something very close to the heart of most trans people. However again personally I would never rule out sex with anybody who I found myself fancying. Unless and until a situation arises I've always found it seldom wise to say 'never'.
My own view is that no trans person should ever be obliged to conceal their trans status or history and in practice I think the imagined fear of deception by a trans person is seldom the reality unless fear of rejection is a component in that trans person's thinking. Cisgenderist ideology and antagonism to trans people does nothing to help reduce this fear.
One thing I would ask you to considerer is your language. I believe when you refer to a 'Trans man', you are actually meaning a trans woman = a trans person who identifies as female. It's not really possible to claim to be supportive of trans people without taking this on board.
If you know much about intersex, you should also be aware that many intersex adults find the idea that a decision should be made concerning their reproductive organs soon after birth to be mutilation unless not to have made such a decision would endangered their life. Again this is about autonomy over their own bodies. I find your sexual preference for a certain genital configuration and even socialisation perfectly understandable but this does present a paradox. How would you feel if a surgeon's whim at birth had created a vagina in a person who was socialised as female but who was, at the time of intimacy, closeted in identifying as male?
You say 'trans people are not intersex'. This is unlikely to be scientifically correct. Accumulating data suggests that trans people do have a variety of physical similarities to the gender they identify with, mainly neurological. I cannot assert this with absolute scientific certainty at the present time but no more can you assert that trans people are not intersex.
My own view is that theory and speculation are not helpful in these situations. Respect and a more gentle approach to each other is always preferable. As Roz has stated, nobody is asking anybody else to have sex with anybody else ... but nor do they have to express revulsion at the very idea of sexual intimacy in some combination which does not appeal to them.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 10:57 am (UTC)I do agree that no Trans person should ever be obliged to conceal their history, although I do understand why fear of violence, etc might compel some to do this in particular contexts.
I have not said I am supportive of Trans people as a group. Of individuals as long as they are decent human beings, of course I would always be supportive of them. But the idea that someone can be a man or a woman because they say they are, is not one that I want to support.
Yes I do know that there is a large debate about not doing surgery to intersex people's genitals and bodies as babies. If someone had been born intersex ahd a vagina created and been socialised as a female, then I would struggle to see them as anything but a female tbh.
I find the concept of neurological gender differences fairly problematic from a feminist perspective. If this is ever proven then of course I will ahve to accept it. But the current research really doesn't prove that this is the case.
I have not expressed revulsion at the idea of sex with men or male bodies. I am a lesbian and am sexually attracted to female bodies. But I am not revulsed by male bodies.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 11:30 am (UTC)It depends on your definition of 'man' or 'woman', where I concur with Charmain Quigley's conclusion that this can only be subjective and contextual. I personally chose not to think in these terms but only to be happy for anybody who is comfortable with their gender presentation and apparent body sex. I am generally perceived as a woman. I would only describe myself as being comfortable with the way I now am.
My only take on feminism is that any female or indeed feminine person is an entirely equal human being. There is a long and tortuous social history around the continuing struggle for this to be fully recognised but is there any reason to complicate such an aim with complex theory?
Personally again, I recognise problems that I have had with what I expect of other people's gender. I have come to see such expectation as entirely negative. You make clear that you expect certain behaviours from categories which you define as 'men' and 'women'. History and experience may have led you to believe that your expectations are justified but you might consider that, by hanging on to them, you only perpetuate the likelihood of their continuing to be a reality.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 12:16 pm (UTC)Feminism analyses the ways in which woman have been disadvanatged and discriminated against. Without an understanding of this and its compklexties, it is very difficult to make real lasting change.For example, why do some women keep returning to violent men? Unless you understand that, you can never effectively tackle it.
I do not expect certain behaviours. I would prefer if people's behaviour was based on them as an individual and not their sex. But the reality is that although I and some others try to overcome our socialisation around gender roles, it is very difficult to do so. Thus we witness feminists in marriages where they are still doing the most of the housework.
I wish I had enough power to change how people treat me as a woman and that I could chnage things just by expecting them to behave differently.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 12:56 pm (UTC)I take your points on feminism but I also think they tie in with expectation. Setting aside psychopathy, the way most men treat women ... whether that is as equals or subservient ... is the result of social conditioning and expectation. Different cultures and history make this extremely clear. An absence of expectation ... except to expect the best of all people in all circumstances is true equality.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 04:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 04:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 04:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 04:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 08:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 09:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 09:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 09:42 pm (UTC)And once again you're derailing. Stop it.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 09:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 09:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-19 09:56 am (UTC)and their is a political argument about whether transexuals are a form of inetrsexuality
but don't confuse transexuality with trans, transexuality is a small aspect of trans
no subject
Date: 2012-04-19 10:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-19 10:04 am (UTC)but it goes to a key issue - how does socialisation work?
your making some big assumptions around socialisation and how we aquire socialisation, ones that if I spent some time talking you through the issues you might realise were unfounded
arrgghhh this is one of the key things i need to write about in book form but i also need to get myself well and get myself finacially more secure and it will just have to wait
no subject
Date: 2012-04-19 10:09 am (UTC)If you dressed an obvious boy in a dress you would quickly see socialisation at work from family and friends basically telling you off, strangers disapproving comments and schools interventions.
And this is a crude example, Research into hwo people treat a baby they don't know shows they behave differently if they are told a baby is a girl or a boy irrespective of their actual sex.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-19 11:16 am (UTC)again I would have to take you through a bunch of thought experimenst to start totease through the issues
no subject
Date: 2012-04-19 11:19 am (UTC)