More Cotton Ceiling

[rozk]

Someone commented anonymously on my previous post as follows:
Why shouldn't a lesbian, of which I am one, decide that she only wants to sleep with women - and by women I mean people with female bodies. In my book, that is the definition of a lesbian. I am not being prejudiced by declaring i will never sleep with men or never sleep with Trans people with male bodies, I am simply stating my preference as a lesbian.

I think actually it is quite arrogant for Trans people to tell lesbians what their definition of a lesbian should be.

I don't know who this is. though psrticular coincidences of phrasing make me think that it may be Cath Brennan =@bugbrennan on Twitter- who seems to regard herself as totally my nemesis. But, I don't actually know it is her and I choose to prefer to believe that someone who has tweeted me links to hate sites with my photo on them would have the good taste not to post here. Later Not Brennan apparently, just someone who shares her views and uses some of the same phrasing.

So, to address the point raised...

In the first case, what do you mean by 'female bodies'? Do you mean 'the bodies of people assigned female at birth' or do you mean 'those bodies I regard as female by some criteria I will tell you about but have not'? And when you say 'female', is there, as oddly there sometimes seems to be in people who take the position you are taking here. a subtle distinction between the word 'female' and the word 'woman'? Are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had a penis, however else they presented, or are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had ever had a penis, no matter how much surgery they had had?

Do you insist on a full physical examination of your potential lovers? An up-to-date report from their gynaecologist? Or do you, like some of the people who comment on GenderTrender, believe that you just always know when a trans woman is in the room? That your womb twitches, or the hairs on your neck dance widdershins, or that you can smell them out? That their vaginal juices just taste different? (For people late to this particular conversation, or too sane to go near Gendertrender,I am not making this shit up. Honest. Not even exaggerating much.)

In which case. presumably, you also think it arrogant of trans people to want to have sex with anyone without full disclosure of their past. present and future genital configuration? Or do you think that lesbians. of whom you are one, should have some rights in this matter greater than those allocated to straight women, straight men and gay men? You did say 'trans people', but did you actually mean 'trans women'? Or are you choosing to regard as 'female' the bodies of trans men? Wouldn't that too be rather arrogant? And I notice, when you talk of arrogance, that you regard your own ideas about what constitutes a female body as trumping the ideas of the person who is that body?

Am I being arrogant in asking to have a conversation when your particular brand of lesbianism gives you a full and total answer and anything I might say is redundant?

No one here is telling anyone what they ought to think or to whom they ought to be attracted. I wrote my original post as the start of a conversation. The question is, rather, to ask them to justify that preference. Some lesbians like to talk as if they could never sleep with women who had ever slept with a man; is that a justifiable preference? One of my lovers was told that, if she slept with me, no decent woman would ever want to touch her again' - would that be a justifiable preference? Some straight men say that, if they ever found out that someone they'd slept with was trans, they would kill them. Is that justified? Or at least, do you understand that level of anger, rather than regarding it with abhorrence?

I certainly would not want to sleep with any woman who had strong views about my past. I don't know any lesbian trans woman who would want to. For me, this has not always been an abstract question. I'm out and have always been out, and don't try to pass past a level that ensures basic social safety - I have nonetheless had occasional unequivocal passes made at me by women I had reason to believe shared your views and have regarded myself as obliged to make specific and explicit disclosure, just as I had to, back in the days when I was still sleeping with men. I certainly would not want the consequent awkwardness to happen after sex rather than before it. On occasion, though, I've thought it a shame, because I am weak and human, and my preference not to sleep with transphobic bigots is sometimes something I've had to weigh against sexual attraction.

It must be nice to be encased in certainty as to who everyone you meet is, and have perpetual hard guidelines about which of them are off-limits - or maybe not. How would you feel about a woman who said she would only sleep with women of her own race or religion? Or who had preferences about body weight, class, level of able-bodiedness? Just saying.

Comments

[x-mass.livejournal.com]

my dear i would hope you sleep with someone you fancy, who cuddles you, makes you good dinners, make you feel warm and special, who recognises all of whom you are

I hope lesbians in general shoudl get to sleep with lesbian and bisexual women, cause going out with hets who are playing around is a world of pain

should lesbians sleep with men um if they want I suppose

i said transgender covers a huge range of groups, transexualsa small section of that, transexuals are about 1 in 1000 people, so persumably 1 in 1000 lesbians is transexual and i would hope that hope that other lesbians can see past teh suffering transexual lesbians have suffered to see the women within, that their are lesbinas who will love them for whom they are with all the diversity of whom they

I hope you are loved for who you are, for all the diversity of who you are

and btw thankyou for signing up to Lj and being willing to come into this space to talk, I am sure we are very challenging to you.

hugs (if wanted)

kate

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

Hi Kate

Thanks I have no problem at all with people here being challenging to me. I think I am also being challenging. And I do hope all Trans men and women find someone who loves them and respects them. And I know transgender people suffer lots of harassment and violence and I really wish that would stop.

But sorry I won't see a Trans man as a woman.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

In one breath you say And I know transgender people suffer lots of harassment and violence and I really wish that would stop.

Yes right after that you go on and say But sorry I won't see a Trans man as a woman.

You wish the harassment would stop but you are utterly unwilling to be the person who stops first.

And you wonder why we say you're such a hypocrite.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

I guess it depends what you mean by harassment. I don't want Trans people to be harassed at work by colleagues or customers, or to be harassed by neighbours or strangers on the street. That doesn't mean I want Trans men in all women only spaces.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

You refuse to give up. You continue your campaign of hatred and pooression right in our faces. You once again demonstrate your claim to superiority by setting aside spaces for "real" women that you don't want trans women to belong in. You clearly, unequivocably demonstrate your double standard. "It's perfectly okay that trans women shouldn't get harassed in the street, but don't let those icky people near me."

Hypocrite.

[x-mass.livejournal.com]

no jess she isn't a hypocrite she just has a different view of the world than we do

her view is consistent and logical.

I disagree with her underlying assumptions but that doesn't mean she doesn't care about how trans people are treated by society - she just see's us as who we are at birth and that is a view shared by many people whose knowledge of biology is based on the "lies to children" that she was taught in school

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

I contend that her hypocrisy lies in the fact that she claims to be feminist yet she consistently uses the Patriarchy's tools against trans women. She claims the right to define herself, she gets quite defensive when we call her "cis" yet she expends large amounts of energy attepting to police our identities. There is her hypocrisy.

[x-mass.livejournal.com]

I guess i come froma multiple schoold of feminism theory, oh and a huge chunk of realpolitic.

She to me undoubtly a feminist. I known plenty of feminist who see being lesbian as wrong and sickening (for religious reasons), they are still feminists even if they seem to ape the logic of patriachy at times,

To me feminism is about making the world better for all women and there is so much to do that i am not worried about picking only people who accept me as me on my team.

I saw what that logic brougt back in the eighties, that atomisation, that tore feminism to bits. It also was tearing the trasexual rights community to bits which is why I fought hard to promote transgender as inclusive and fought to incude transgender with LGBT

As to pilicing identities, I suspect she is policing her identity,: If she accepts us as women, how does she know that she is a woman? Something that is central to her identity both as a lesbian and as a feminist.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

My heart bleeds for her. Regardless of any personal problems she has, she has no right to tell someone esle who they are.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

Thank you x mass, somone is agreeing with something I said!

I have consistently said that I don't want transgendered men to access some women only spaces, not all.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

And by doing that, you consistently degender trans women. By doing that you practise exclusionism, a tool of the Patriarchy. By doing that, you demonstrate your deep and abiding hypocrisy.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

Exclusionism by itself si not automatically a tool of the patriarchy. Black women excluding me from their space are not in my view using tools of the patriarchy or oppressing me. They are attempting to have some space for themselves.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

Invalid comparisson is invalid. And once again you attempt to derail. Exclusionism the way you are using it is a tool of the Patriarchy. Do not pretend for a second that it isn't. Do not try and twist off the hook.

[x-mass.livejournal.com]

which is where i agree with you. This is about safe space. if my precense ther makes it unsafe, by definition its not a safe space.

so what your saying is tou want 'cis' women only space - thats fine with me

As strength to your bow may a give an example of this from trans community. I remember when the london FTM group would include Drag Kings but specifically excluded me despite my being a Drag King because i hadn't been designated female at birth.

I thought it a bit ironic but i could see the point

On the other hand i objected pretty violently when another ex of mine claimed that i couldn't do drag king since it for me was transitioning back not a radical performance, that in effect only if you had been designated female at birth could you be a drag king

I think you can see the difference, in the first case this is about excluding to create a safe space that people can talk and the second is about discrimination and the policing of others.

Mind you being in a safe space doesn't make it safe i was horrendously hurt in a trans only safe space at last years UK BiCon

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

I don't feel at all that "I don't want those icky people near me". If you lived near me I would be quite happy to meet up with you for a drink. But no I wouldn't want to have sex with a Trans person who thinks they are a woman.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

Yet you feel entirely justified in excluding trans women from women's space, and you feel completely entitled to remove our gender and insert your own opinion in its place.

Nobody, not even Roz in the post that started this whole exchange, has ever suggested that you should have sex with a trans woman. You barged in here and made Roz' post all about you. That's your particular obsession, not ours. If you hadn't stuck your overprivileged nose into Roz' post, we wouldn't be having this conversation and the world wouldn't be learning about your particular brand of intolerance. Don't you dare try and blame us for your actions. Victim blaming is still another of the Patriarchy's tools. You're racking up quite a list here, hypocrite.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

Yes I do feel justified in trying to exclude trans people from some women's space.

The cotton ceiling is based on the idea that lesbains as a group should not reject trans people as sexual partners because they are really woman. I don't agree with that as you know. I actually think that argument of Roz's, would challenge the definition of what a lesbian actually is - and not in a good way.

I have repeatedly said to Roz if she wants me to stop posting I will. Roz has said several times that it is fine for me to post.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

So you admit that you discriminate. You admit that you do not consider trans women to be women. You admit that you oppress and will be happy to see the oppression continue. What I don't see you admitting is how wrong you are and how deeply flawed yoru arguments are.

That you see Roz' discussion of challenging lesbianism as a threat says a lot about your insecurities and nothing at all about trans people. Do not try and blame us for your personal inadequacies.

Yes, it is perfectly fine for you to expose your ridiculously incorrect ideas so the whole world can see them.

[tekalynn.livejournal.com]

Then don't! But please don't deny people their identity.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

But that is at the root of the issue here. I don't think being a woman is an identity you can adopt. It is a biological fact. It is like Christian fundamentalists asking me to accept that evolution never took place. I will never be bale to accept a clear lie.

[x-mass.livejournal.com]

Ok its fine we can agree to disagree, i'm sure there are lots of things you and i would agree about and would happily work together on

and thank you for recognising the harrasment we suffer,

the problem is that because we have suffered so much we tend to tar anyone who disagree's with us with the same brush. But its clear that's not how you feel. I really appreciate your care, and what support you feel able to give.

the one issue is lanuage I understand what you mean, don't agree with it, but I understand where your coming from. However your choice of words sounds like harrasment when you clearly have no such intention. Can we agree on compormise about language: hows about this

"i cant accept that transexual people are the sex that they state they are"

this i think reflects what you believe, but without hitting buttons around words such as wo/man that hurt us?

best wishes

kate

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

Yes I would be happy with this. Believe it or not I don't use words such as woman to deliberately hurt anyone, that really is not my intention. And I would never have this debate with a Transgendered person unless they brought it up for debate as I believe Rozk did here.

In real life if we met and you did not discuss this with me, I would not raise it. I also wouldn't call you a woman or she. I would probably just avoid using any gender pronoun instead.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

So again you degender and disrespect trans people. Yet again you make it clear that to you trans people are Other, less than worthy of the respect and consideration that all people are supposed to be given.

Yet again you prove that your actions oppose your words.

[x-mass.livejournal.com]

using peoples names are a good solution: so describing me as kate.

Also gender neutral words such as they or one. So a typical sentance might be

"so your looking for.... oh kate, they went in there"

btw can i explain why i may be having a different reaction than other people here.

I was loud about being transexual all through the eighties (which is why i spell it transexual not trans-sexual) I went loud at school at the start of the eighties just as their was the mose intense hatred shown towards transexuals by the feminist movement, the fact that you don't want me hung, drawn and quartered would definitly put you on my side.

I knew and worked with people who saw me as a man and would not allow me into womens only space but equally would fight for me if I was harrassed by others, who I saw as people who accepted me as me. Being excluded and not being allowed in, is not a new thing for me, it has happened my entire life.

All my life I have been told how people don't feel safe around. And if me being in a room made people unsafe then: it wasn't a safe space. Yes i can be politically active and say: "no this your issue and you should have to accept me", but I was there to get feminism done, not transexual rights (as i would of thought of it back then) and I just lived with it.

this is something that you and my disagree with on as well though, because i happily work with someone on feminist issues who for example belives being lesbian is immoral and sickening (for religious reasons), people don't have to accept all of whom I am to be an ally.

which btw is how i see you right now, so one who disagree with certain aspects of who i am but who would equally work with me to make things better for lesbians and for all women in the world.

[lesley222.livejournal.com]

Yes that does explain things thanks.

Just to say certainly when I talk about safe spaces I don't mean that I think Trans people are going to actually be physically violent or attack me. I mean a safe space away from sexism from men, including those who have been socialised as men.

And in real life I do just avoid using gender pronouns with transexual people. I would never actually refer to them as a man, because actually I am polite. In a political debate though I do generally use gender pro nouns.