More Cotton Ceiling
Apr. 17th, 2012 08:12 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rozkSomeone commented anonymously on my previous post as follows:
Why shouldn't a lesbian, of which I am one, decide that she only wants to sleep with women - and by women I mean people with female bodies. In my book, that is the definition of a lesbian. I am not being prejudiced by declaring i will never sleep with men or never sleep with Trans people with male bodies, I am simply stating my preference as a lesbian.
I think actually it is quite arrogant for Trans people to tell lesbians what their definition of a lesbian should be.
I don't know who this is. though psrticular coincidences of phrasing make me think that it may be Cath Brennan =@bugbrennan on Twitter- who seems to regard herself as totally my nemesis. But, I don't actually know it is her and I choose to prefer to believe that someone who has tweeted me links to hate sites with my photo on them would have the good taste not to post here. Later Not Brennan apparently, just someone who shares her views and uses some of the same phrasing.
So, to address the point raised...
In the first case, what do you mean by 'female bodies'? Do you mean 'the bodies of people assigned female at birth' or do you mean 'those bodies I regard as female by some criteria I will tell you about but have not'? And when you say 'female', is there, as oddly there sometimes seems to be in people who take the position you are taking here. a subtle distinction between the word 'female' and the word 'woman'? Are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had a penis, however else they presented, or are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had ever had a penis, no matter how much surgery they had had?
Do you insist on a full physical examination of your potential lovers? An up-to-date report from their gynaecologist? Or do you, like some of the people who comment on GenderTrender, believe that you just always know when a trans woman is in the room? That your womb twitches, or the hairs on your neck dance widdershins, or that you can smell them out? That their vaginal juices just taste different? (For people late to this particular conversation, or too sane to go near Gendertrender,I am not making this shit up. Honest. Not even exaggerating much.)
In which case. presumably, you also think it arrogant of trans people to want to have sex with anyone without full disclosure of their past. present and future genital configuration? Or do you think that lesbians. of whom you are one, should have some rights in this matter greater than those allocated to straight women, straight men and gay men? You did say 'trans people', but did you actually mean 'trans women'? Or are you choosing to regard as 'female' the bodies of trans men? Wouldn't that too be rather arrogant? And I notice, when you talk of arrogance, that you regard your own ideas about what constitutes a female body as trumping the ideas of the person who is that body?
Am I being arrogant in asking to have a conversation when your particular brand of lesbianism gives you a full and total answer and anything I might say is redundant?
No one here is telling anyone what they ought to think or to whom they ought to be attracted. I wrote my original post as the start of a conversation. The question is, rather, to ask them to justify that preference. Some lesbians like to talk as if they could never sleep with women who had ever slept with a man; is that a justifiable preference? One of my lovers was told that, if she slept with me, no decent woman would ever want to touch her again' - would that be a justifiable preference? Some straight men say that, if they ever found out that someone they'd slept with was trans, they would kill them. Is that justified? Or at least, do you understand that level of anger, rather than regarding it with abhorrence?
I certainly would not want to sleep with any woman who had strong views about my past. I don't know any lesbian trans woman who would want to. For me, this has not always been an abstract question. I'm out and have always been out, and don't try to pass past a level that ensures basic social safety - I have nonetheless had occasional unequivocal passes made at me by women I had reason to believe shared your views and have regarded myself as obliged to make specific and explicit disclosure, just as I had to, back in the days when I was still sleeping with men. I certainly would not want the consequent awkwardness to happen after sex rather than before it. On occasion, though, I've thought it a shame, because I am weak and human, and my preference not to sleep with transphobic bigots is sometimes something I've had to weigh against sexual attraction.
It must be nice to be encased in certainty as to who everyone you meet is, and have perpetual hard guidelines about which of them are off-limits - or maybe not. How would you feel about a woman who said she would only sleep with women of her own race or religion? Or who had preferences about body weight, class, level of able-bodiedness? Just saying.
Why shouldn't a lesbian, of which I am one, decide that she only wants to sleep with women - and by women I mean people with female bodies. In my book, that is the definition of a lesbian. I am not being prejudiced by declaring i will never sleep with men or never sleep with Trans people with male bodies, I am simply stating my preference as a lesbian.
I think actually it is quite arrogant for Trans people to tell lesbians what their definition of a lesbian should be.
I don't know who this is. though psrticular coincidences of phrasing make me think that it may be Cath Brennan =@bugbrennan on Twitter- who seems to regard herself as totally my nemesis. But, I don't actually know it is her and I choose to prefer to believe that someone who has tweeted me links to hate sites with my photo on them would have the good taste not to post here. Later Not Brennan apparently, just someone who shares her views and uses some of the same phrasing.
So, to address the point raised...
In the first case, what do you mean by 'female bodies'? Do you mean 'the bodies of people assigned female at birth' or do you mean 'those bodies I regard as female by some criteria I will tell you about but have not'? And when you say 'female', is there, as oddly there sometimes seems to be in people who take the position you are taking here. a subtle distinction between the word 'female' and the word 'woman'? Are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had a penis, however else they presented, or are you saying that you would never want to sleep with someone who had ever had a penis, no matter how much surgery they had had?
Do you insist on a full physical examination of your potential lovers? An up-to-date report from their gynaecologist? Or do you, like some of the people who comment on GenderTrender, believe that you just always know when a trans woman is in the room? That your womb twitches, or the hairs on your neck dance widdershins, or that you can smell them out? That their vaginal juices just taste different? (For people late to this particular conversation, or too sane to go near Gendertrender,I am not making this shit up. Honest. Not even exaggerating much.)
In which case. presumably, you also think it arrogant of trans people to want to have sex with anyone without full disclosure of their past. present and future genital configuration? Or do you think that lesbians. of whom you are one, should have some rights in this matter greater than those allocated to straight women, straight men and gay men? You did say 'trans people', but did you actually mean 'trans women'? Or are you choosing to regard as 'female' the bodies of trans men? Wouldn't that too be rather arrogant? And I notice, when you talk of arrogance, that you regard your own ideas about what constitutes a female body as trumping the ideas of the person who is that body?
Am I being arrogant in asking to have a conversation when your particular brand of lesbianism gives you a full and total answer and anything I might say is redundant?
No one here is telling anyone what they ought to think or to whom they ought to be attracted. I wrote my original post as the start of a conversation. The question is, rather, to ask them to justify that preference. Some lesbians like to talk as if they could never sleep with women who had ever slept with a man; is that a justifiable preference? One of my lovers was told that, if she slept with me, no decent woman would ever want to touch her again' - would that be a justifiable preference? Some straight men say that, if they ever found out that someone they'd slept with was trans, they would kill them. Is that justified? Or at least, do you understand that level of anger, rather than regarding it with abhorrence?
I certainly would not want to sleep with any woman who had strong views about my past. I don't know any lesbian trans woman who would want to. For me, this has not always been an abstract question. I'm out and have always been out, and don't try to pass past a level that ensures basic social safety - I have nonetheless had occasional unequivocal passes made at me by women I had reason to believe shared your views and have regarded myself as obliged to make specific and explicit disclosure, just as I had to, back in the days when I was still sleeping with men. I certainly would not want the consequent awkwardness to happen after sex rather than before it. On occasion, though, I've thought it a shame, because I am weak and human, and my preference not to sleep with transphobic bigots is sometimes something I've had to weigh against sexual attraction.
It must be nice to be encased in certainty as to who everyone you meet is, and have perpetual hard guidelines about which of them are off-limits - or maybe not. How would you feel about a woman who said she would only sleep with women of her own race or religion? Or who had preferences about body weight, class, level of able-bodiedness? Just saying.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 04:47 pm (UTC)When I challenged you to back up that claim you backpeadaled.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 08:57 pm (UTC)As I asid before, I don't really understand why individual people and from what I have seen individual men hate and fear transgendered people so much. I think it might be because men can not understand why someone in a male body might want to change their body and self identity to a woman's. After all men being called a woman or being told they behave like a woman is an insult that is not uncommonly used.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 09:15 pm (UTC)Where I live the laws are slightly different but substantially the same; trans people are real people and they are to be accorded the recognition they deserve; recognition you consistently attempt to deny us.
Again you attempt to define trans women by our bodies. Again you try and Other us. As I have maintained throughout this exchange, our bodies do not define us. Yet you persist in trying.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 09:27 pm (UTC)Transgenderism reinforces patriarchy by accepting that there is such a thing as a female or male way to feel, think and behave.
I don't think patriarchy approves of transgendered people, but I don't think it is threatened by them either. I think individuals are threatened by transgender people though.
That is the nux of our argument that we are not going to agree on. I think if you are born wwith a male body you are a man and vice versa. You don't think this.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 09:37 pm (UTC)You may repeat your lie as many times as you like, but it will still be untrue.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 09:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 09:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 09:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 09:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 09:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 10:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 10:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 10:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 10:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 10:13 pm (UTC)And once again you are attempting a derail. You lose. Again.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 10:20 pm (UTC)But jessie, I am going to bed now. Night.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 10:31 pm (UTC)We know you lost. You know you lost.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-20 08:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-20 04:54 pm (UTC)Yes, Roz has not told you to leave; she is far more polite than you are, and she has provided you with an opportunity to make an enormmous fool of yourself where all can see.
Roz mentioned that many women, actually a majority of women, are recognising that trans women are real women. You blithely ignored this and repeatedly restated your wrongheaded belief that we are not as if this would somehow make it true. You are part of an ever-decreasing minority that is dying out. You are condemned to become a part of history while we are busy making the future. You and your exclusionist attitude are becomming increasingly irrelevant to Feminist reality in the 21st Century. Think about that. Stew in your bitterness and impotent hatred.
History is filled with examples of people who refused to learn and grow. You are merely one more added to the scrap heap in the dead, dusty past.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-19 08:48 am (UTC)reality is rather more divergent
but as a useful rule of thumb its good, its right 99% of the time
no subject
Date: 2012-04-19 08:58 am (UTC)rather than having to accept that gender doesn't exist which would blow a lot of how our society is ruled apart it's easier to allow exceptions and small changes
specially as most transexual people are strong supporters of their being only male and female
obviously i don't agree with that - I recognise that right now gender exists that doesn't mean i belive that gender actually exists, I think its an artifact of how we used to do things
I also not sure if sex exists, I accept that their are group of charateristics that can be groupled and crudely labeled at a gross level as sex but at a more fine grained level that's much much more complex
and yes that does contest with my calling myself a woman, a lesbian and a feminist - but they are useful shorthand labels when deeling at a gross level
no subject
Date: 2012-04-19 09:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-19 09:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-19 11:03 am (UTC)how would you feel about being classified as a third sex by say hetrosexual women?
no subject
Date: 2012-04-19 11:04 am (UTC)